is seriously letting us down this offseason. Too many weak moves.

[quote name='HardHitt3n' date='Jul 2 2008, 05:29 AM' post='258667']
is seriously letting us down this offseason. Too many weak moves.
[/quote


Yeah I agree, but I just read that Carolina traded Cole for one of the Flyers old players. I feel bad for Cole.

He's been rather mediocre (sp?). He had to trade Umberger and we got a good pick out of it. We signed two solid depth players in Väänänen and Metropolit. We signed Cote to a slave contract. Eminger move was a risky move and we will see about that, might be a huge steal even though I'm very unsure about it still (still cries that we let up Markström in the draft). Then all those AHL moves that I couldn't care less about. The Niskala thing concerned me, he must've known that Niskala only wanted a one year contract, but this still happened at this level, how? The resignings of Jones and Carter have been bad IMO. Both are overpaid at the moment and will get new contracts when they reach their peaks. And the trade with the Kings was not very good IMO.

Summed up pretty well, I agree.

I wasn't expecting big names anyway this summer because of the cap situation.

I would also add that I like Holmgren's first picks in the draft, Sbisa and Bourdon.

The cap situation was always going to make this years Free Agency a little difficult. But the contracts all the other teams are handing out, it makes Jones' and Carter's look pretty good.

I think the moves are fine. Stockpiling Dmen for forwards who weren't very likely to crack the lineup anytime soon makes sense. We need help on D and are very deep with forwards. Id rather stockpile a group of D than throw big money at one guy and screw this team financially for the next 4-5 years.


The Rangers are starting to look like the Rangers of a few years ago again. All these big names and big contracts they are handing out. This is what I dont want to see the Flyers do.

My predictions for 2008-2009 divisional standings:
Philly
Pitt
NYR
NJ
NYI

I think it's time for a reality check folks...
The flyers went to the ECF, and lost to a team
that on paper shouldn't exist in today's NHL.

We have an amazing core of forwards.
We have one of the best tandems of goaltenders.
We have an amazing 1st D pairing, a decent 2nd pairing.
So we need work on the 3rd...
But with the stable of young D-men we have now it
puts alot of incentive on these guys to compete against
eachother. We're bound to find 1-2 guys that will step it
up in our system to become solid 3-6 D-men. And have
the cushion to deal with injuries.

This is the new NHL, where you really need to look 3-5 years
ahead to put people into place to grow, as players that hit
RFA status for the first time are going to be thrown
ridiculous amounts of money by teams. We're going to lose
players down the road, all teams do. Holmgren is putting
together a strong farm system to be able to promote from within.
And minimize the need to have an off season free signing session
like he was forced to do last summer.

Holmgren has shown nothing but a rare blend of fiscal responsibility,
determination to fill holes that NEED to be addressed, realistic amount
of loyalty to his players and commitment to putting a team on the ice
that I feel proud to say "I'm a flyers fan".

Sometimes, he's gonna make moves that might not appeal to most
of the fans, but that's the nature of the business today. We all look short term,
he has to look both short and long term and try to strike a balance between the
two.

The honeymoon is definitely over. Homer painted himself into a corner by handing out too many big contracts. Now he can't afford to add legit help on D and is stuck with more 5-6 guys like Eminger and Vaananen.

I agree about Sbisa and Bourdon. We'll see how many of these other moves pan out for Holmer. I'm skeptical but willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Your 5-6 guys are never superstars, it doesnt matter which team you look at. You need 1-2 elite Dmen, 2 more top shelf Dmen and the rest are solid role players.

+ .99

Now that the Rags have ditched one of the worst captains in the league, and then Pens have lost a bunch of guys, I can see the Rags maybe edging them out for number two.

I keep going back and forth on it. I think Homer got decent talent with the money he had to spend but, at the same time, he spent money poorly. Briere, Hartnell, Carter, and now Jones are getting overpaid. I know people will argue that salary will go up with the cap but other teams signed comparable players for less money. For example, the Habs re-signed Andrei Kostitsyn to a 3 year deal for $3.25 mil a year. He put up the exact same points as Carter did last year, is almost the exact same age, and was drafted one spot above Carter in the 2003 draft.

Still, I think we need to put things in perspective. Yes, we lost Umberger and Prospal. But, we also are getting back Gagne and Giroux will be on the team. Gagne is better than Prospal and Giroux will be better than Umberger. Metropolit is not a bad option over Dowd. Parent will only get better and better.

One of our big problems last year was, when a d-man went down, nobody was there to step into the lineup as a serviceable replacement. Homer addressed that need with guys who have pretty high ceilings. If only one or two of them pan out, I still think it's not that bad. We didn't give up a ton to get them.

The things that hurt the most to me are losing the first (for Eminger) and second (to trade Gauthier's salary) round picks. That hurts. Still, we upgraded first round picks and got Sbisa before trading our original pick away. So, I can't complain too much about it. I think Sbisa and Bourdon will both be good players at the NHL level in a few years.

So, in brief: Homer is bad with money and is a little quick to trade away draft picks but I think he's pretty good at evaluating talent. As Homer continues to grow into the job, he'll get better with the money and draft pick errors -- especially when he has to deal with the effects of having no cap space.

Last in the league to what 7 wins for the Cup and people are complaining about this offseason even knowing that there was little money to be spent and having to sign RFA's and such, wow.

well i wasn't expecting Campbell... but so far this has been pretty bad in my mind.

Wow... got to love the overwhelming shortsightedness of this board right now. Oh, and while you're at it, go ahead and dig that knife a little deeper in the board-proclaimed savior of the Flyers only, what, 2 months after praising him for being able to get us to the ECF one season after being dead last in the league.


The attitudes on here are ridiculous. Oh freakin darn, they aren't signing a big name FA to a ridiculously inflated contract. (Mike Commodore is getting >$3 million per season? Thats insanity) Bottom line (monetary-wise, cap-wise, and talent-wise) the Flyers don't need another high dollar player on this team. We already have Richards, Carter, Gagne, Briere, and Timmonen. We don't need another high dollar guy. No, what we need is to overhaul the back-end of this roster in moves that makes our 3rd and 4th forward lines and 2nd and 3rd defensive lines better than everyone elses 3rd and 4th forward lines and 2nd and 3rd defensive lines, and that is exactly what he has been doing this offseason. Face it, our 1st and 2nd forward lines and our top defensive pairing are top-notch. It would not really improve upon last season to overspend on another big name player to fill a role on one of those lines, because we don't need it. We need depth, we need to be deeper than anyone out there. With moves like we have been seeing this offseason, that is what we are doing.

I mean look at all the big name FA's out there... they went to places that need them, and the teams were willing to give them more money than they probably deserved. Is Campbell worth $8 million a year? No, but Chicago thinks he is, and they gave it to him because they didn't have anyone else on defense. They also needed a goalie to cover for Khabi when he leaves, hence why they threw that money at Huet. The Flyers are not in a position to do something like that, which is why you won't see it. And as far as a trade, who would you give up and what would you give him up for? In the Cole-Pitkanen trade, you have 2 teams that desperately needed a piece to their puzzle and they found the perfect fit with what they got. I don't see the Flyers with that kind of possibility.


So with that being said, before you start blasting Homer for his "lack of action", first come up with a solution that would actually be feasible and reasonable with the way the NHL is run today.

End of rant... for now

How quickly Flyers fans forget...

haha, seriously.

Honestly you people need help.

Homer has done an outstanding job. It has been one day into free agency and you people are saying its a bad offseason.

He dealt dennis gauthier who cant play in the NHL anymore for two prospects. a great move to rid us of that salary.

he resigned jeff carter who is one of the young kids of the future on this team.

he dealt umberger and turned it into a first round pick. lets not forget umberger was a kid who never even made it, he happened to get signed by the flyers and had ONE READ IT ONE good playoff series and now hes the talk of the town.

he is stocking up on Defense and got us a former first round draft pick in eminger and signed him cheap and the kid has a history of playing with richards so there is some chemistry, this kid can fit in nicely.

vannanen is a nice pick up the guy is solid, and will help mentor the younger guys who may not be ready to jump in right away.

he picked up metropolit to replace dowd, and the guy had 30 points with the bruins last year so hes no deadbeat.

jeff carter and randy jones deals are market deals. anyone who thinks otherwise isnt following the market.

i mean look at what kids are getting.

everyone needs to relax. the flyers are stock piled with young talent and if homer can move a knuble or another guy and pick up a number 2 dman we are gonna be very very good.

you see whats happening around the league, kids have to take pay cuts to keep the teams together.

are you telling me crosby is only worth 8.7 mil per year but that guys like redden and campbell are worth almost just as much? how about the canucks offering sundin 2 years 20 mil??? i mean would u rather be them ?

I don't except the 5-6 guys to be superstars. That wasn't my point. My point is they already had too many 5-6 guys and went out and got what 2-3 more? Great.

+1000

Jones, Vanni, and Eminger combined make about $5 million. That alone could have gotten the Flyers one better d-man (I'll use Commodore an an example since he got $3 million) instead of more 5-6 guys.

And I'm not even trying that hard yet. If you really want me to get creative (yet still fairly reasonable) let me know and I will.

You want to talk about being shortsighted? Let's talk about some of you nutjobs who think Giroux (inexperience) and Gagne (health) are a given. Let's talk about replacing Smith (who believe me had lots of holes in his game) with Vanni and Eminger. Some of you people are completely off your rocker. The organization sells you on UNPROVEN players as fill ins for something proven (or at least relatively proven) and you have the audacity to scoff at anyone who doesn't seen unproven as a valid replacement for proven.

I agree. Were taking too many chances which is what the Flyers always do and then we get bit in the ***. This is a part of the reason we haven't won a Stanley Cup in years. We could have definitely gotten a big name defensemen with the money were dishing about between Jones, Vanni, and Eminger. All we have now are a bunch of players who are going to make little impact on our team. I'd rather have one SOLID defensemen then 3 guys we aren't completely sure of (with the exception of Jones).

And then you have one player on one line who is great (keep in mind, we already have that in Timmonen, Richards, Gagne, Carter, Briere, etc) but then you have to really skimp on the backend to the point where we are completely overmatched whenever those lines are on the ice (downfall of the Tampa Bay Lightning)...

No thank you, give me Eminger, Jones, and Vaananen that bring in depth and allow us to have the better unit on the ice no matter which lines are together... We are already topheavy enough, time to spread it out a little.



This isn't the NHL of 2003, you can't stockpile talent and expect to dominate. If you stockpile too much you run into cap issues and suffer on the backend and end up shooting yourselves in the feet due to lack of depth and cap space.

These moves are good because it bolsters the depth and improves the specific lines themselves. These are crucial moves in order to take the next step in this league.

i love this, just because everybody doesn't see the immediate benefits to these signings or any huge names added to the roster, they act like they know better than Holmgren. Nobody here knows what he has planned for the players that he signed yesterday, and it's insane to think that you can read his intentions right off the bat. I especially can't understand why people here think that Holmgren likes to overypay players, especially when he is on a tight budget.

Spare parts moves. Got some prospects, a new fouth liner, another Finn on D, got rid of Gauthier...sorry G.O.A.T. We kept our players. I am not thrilled about the Metroplit siginig. I think he is a bum but we'll see. You cant buy, buy, buy every season. And lets be serious all these guys with the exception of Hossa are completey overrated and or having contract seasons. The Canucks want to give Sundin 20 mil.....Cambell got 7+ what is he better than Pronger, Lindstrom, Phanuef....heck no. So let everyone spend, we did our spending last year and it got us far....all we needed where a few spare parts....with any luck these are the guys. They wont be asked to come in and play roles outside themselves....cross your fingers.....oh yeah Toronto gave Finger 14 mil....that's completly absurd. There is no way 90 percent of these guys in this year's Ufa are worth the money they got.

great point

you can get as creative as you'd like within your own head, but it won't change the fact that you know VERY little about any of these situations, while the people that are making the decisions know the details. And really, no player is ever guaranteed to perform, regardless of how "proven" you may see them as, so saying "nutjobs" is a huge extreme.

get ready to be called a cheer leader for agreeing w/ homer

all good points

yet, not too long ago, I could have been with everybody else on the pro-Homer bandwagon - JUST missed it

I agree with what you're saying and all, but it isn't luck that is going to win us games either. I just don't like seeing us sign guys that we have no idea what to expect from. Everyone keeps saying that these were decent depth moves, but then again half of us don't even know what to expect from them.. so how are they such good moves?

I also think its funny how people are so quick to throw the 'Homer overspent' label on Richards, Briere, and Carter. Look at the contracts that are being handed out right now. 2 years from now (when we have these guys still locked up for another 4) these contracts will be a complete bargain when guys are getting paid $10 million a season and our most expensive is getting $8 million.....

Yea, it wasn't great last year, but judging the economic trend of the NHL right now in regards to salaries and the cap, they were brilliant moves that will pay dividends in the future

just because WE don't know what to expect from them doesn't mean that they're bad players. WE are not the authority on what players are worthwhile and which one's are trash.....with some exceptions. For the most part, moves in hockey are not made with the sole intent of pleasing the fans

And when the Flyers make it deep again in the playoffs and is consider a Contender this year for the Cup. I'll come back and bump this thread. Everyone here that has something negative to say, probably were the same people who loved him last year. I will agree that the amount given out by homer were bad, but every single FA will be overpaid.

And some of you don't know what to expect from some of these players because you know nothing about them. Metro-P is a solid addition to our club. I usually take into consideration what the fans of the team that these players left has to say. AND just about every single Bruin fan was dissapointed to see him go. They all basically said that he is a bigger sized Kapanen. He works hard every shift.

Hey bro, we still do have other signed players. Say they did what I mentioend. Skipped on Jones and never went after Vaananen or Eminger. For conversations sake we'll keep with saying it was Commodore they were able to acquire. That still leaves Hatcher, Kukkonen and Parent. If they were to keep Hatcher around (ideally he retires) there's no better spot for him than limited minutes as a 5-6 guy mentoring a young kid or 2.

Problem solve boss.

Thats fine. I honestly don't think were going to make it as far this year, but I still think we'll at least make the playoffs. I think in another 2-3 years we'll win the cup, but I wouldn't put my money on it this year. Too many risky decisions have been made. My prediction is that we will start off strong in the pre-season, and then struggle a bit throughout the regular season, and maybe with some luck clinch a spot in the playoffs.

I think we had a better team in the season we just finished, and even then we were lucky to get a spot in the playoffs, granted we did wonderful once we got there. I just think the Flyers are a team that will be amazing in a couple years, but until then we will be lucky to have seasons like the last one.

I'm not even being that creative. The Flyers management chose to pursue Jones, Eminger, Vanni at those price tags rather than take that money and go after someone a little better for all their money or less.

This team was bound to take a step backwards this year, regardless of whatever moves Holmgren made. After last season's run, I think the bar will be set too high. I think the Flyers make their run next season with a big FA signing in goal (Ryan Miller?) to replace Biron, who is not the long-term answer. I also think JVR comes in next season and makes a big impact as well. I see 2nd place finish in the division and an early playoff exit this year.

Other than the deal with Nashville, where Homer clearly got fleeced, I don't see a whole lot wrong with what's been happening this offseason. They're not building for this year, they're building for 2-3 years down the line. The nucleus is young, they need to make sure they give these players every opportunity to succeed. With all the parity in the NHL now, that seems like a good plan.

Do I agree with all of the moves? Of course not. But I think last season should buy Holmgren a little bit of good will. They're moving in the right direction so that they can re-sign Coburn to an extension next year, before he hits the inflated market. With Hatcher and Rathje off the books next year, they're going to be in much better shape to add the big name that the fans crave so much.

The bottom of the division seems to have gotten better, but I don't see any of the other playoff teams making too many blockbuster deals either. I see a lot of teams on the cusp of respectability making themselves better and teams trying to return to former glory. Most of the playoff teams are already hamstrung by their cap situations and potential resignings down the line. The team that best manages that part of the process is the one that's going to be good for a long period of time, instead of ebbing and flowing like, say, Tampa Bay.

Wow. I like all the armchair GM'ing I see in here. Easy, isn't it?

Bottom line is, we started the off-season right against the cap and we re-signed the entire core of forwards from our ECF team last year except Umberger, Dowd, and Thoresen. That's a success.

Our defensive core, with the loss of Smith and Modry (and of course, Fitzpatrick), is now younger, faster and better puck-handling. With several not-too-far-from-the-NHL prospects. That's a success.

Holmgren has little power over what Hatcher decides to do, which would have been our only avenue to signing a "highish profile" FA. He unloaded Gauthier and got a couple AHL players that could chip in in the future if needed.

The Jones-Vaany-Eminger argument is weak because one of them may not end up counting against the cap, and we would have sacrificed our back-end to bolster the front-end. I'd much rather have 2 great d-men and 4 average d-men, then have a dramatic drop-off after the first 3.

In the end, it's a lot easier to sit here, in hindsight, and say how YOU could have done it better. Like someone said, "but then again half of us don't even know what to expect from them.. so how are they such good moves?" Remember your limitations when you try to criticize someone at that level. I'm not saying you can't criticize , I'm just saying take a spoonful of reality before you talk.

P.S. I doubt the Niskala move was a mistake. But I've explained that already.

Ok, so we're left with one good defensive pairing... One...

Kukkonen and Parent are still prospects, so they're just as unreliable as the guys we just brought in, so we can't use that. So we're left with one good line (Timmonen-Commodore... which makes me laugh just to consider him a top pairing d-man) one line of vastly untested players, and then a line of absolute garbage... Boy, that would be one dominant defensive corps, wouldn't it?

So what happens is that the team goes out there, gets lit up like a Christmas tree night after night because the d has no depth, people start to blame Biron for not being good enough, and the team suffers a below-average season because the offense can't keep up with how bad the defense is.

No thank you. Depth is the key in the NHL today. One line teams are a thing of the past. You have to be superior in all lines you roll out or you'll suffer. Your ideal is to get us to the one line team. Well thats great, we'll be better against everyone else's first line, we'll just get roasted by their second, third, and fourth lines, thats all.

+100000000

Summed up everything I was trying to say.

Yeah, we should be like Chicago and have $12 mil in Goalies or the Rangers with 11 mil in 2 defensemen.

I've said this a dozen times in the past two days, but I'll say it one more time: Teams that throw desperate money at big ticket free agents don't win championships. 2 or 3 overpriced stars don't win championships. Depth and balance wins championships.

Im not really disapointed, we didnt have that much room to work with, and its still not over

I know the signings have been small in name but he's replaced Dowd with Metropolit which is an upgrade and he's turned Smith/Modry into Eminger and Vannanen. Our top 6 are now Kimmo, Coburn, Jones, Eminger, Hatch and Osi with Kukks and Parent for depth, alot better than last year.

Holmgren really doesn't have much room to work with unless he moves somebody but I think he's gearing up for next year. Think about it, Knuble and Hatch both come off the books next year so there's close to $6 million alone, Nitty/Biron also come off next year and the cap will most likely go up. They'll have $10 million in cap room to throw at a #1 goalie and whatever other needs arise.

Although I would like to see him move Knuble, Jones and a pick to Tampa for Boyle.

I can't believe people are on here bashing the same guy that helped us go from WORST IN THE LEAGUE to the Eastern Conference finals in ONE YEAR. The 09 season has not even begun yet. Can't we at least wait until a few games into the season to over analyze some of these moves. The people on here bashing Homer are probably the same people that thought all of the moves Clarkie made all those years were great. GO ON HOMER!!!!!!.....He knows personell......He loves this organization and wants to win a cup as bas as anyone.......Let the man do his job and have some fricken faith....This city is overloaded with pesimism, which is probably justified, but sometimes it gets a little old. Stop with all the negativity and look forward to 09 !

Any word on Beauchemin, Grenier, Guenin, Houle, Jonsson, Munroe, Reid, or Ruzicka signing yet? Reid and Grenier are UFA, but the rest were given qualifying offers.

exactly.

The fact that, when people admit that they know nothing about players that we signed, yet still confidently say that holmgren is screwing up and that we will not live up to the expectations, says plenty about needing-to-sign-bigger-names arguement

+1,000,000

Thank Christ someone said that.

you sound like bobby C away with the youth for the (proven) player

^^^ agreed
but lukko is the numbers guy holmgren has nothing to do with that so people please don't blame him for the money part of it