Philadelphia Flyers

pat

Aug 4 2008, 07:34 PM

QUOTE (bewareofBRIERE @ Aug 4 2008, 08:22 PM)

i still dont understand all this briere hate, without him centering the first line we really wouldn't have a legit first line point getting center. carter has the potential to fill that position, but definatley not now, he's way to inconsistent. richards obviously put up 70+ points but does everyone really think he can produce that every year? especially because he's so effective playing in a shutdown role playing first line would take away that part of his game.

anyway back on topic, i would kill to have bouwmeester on this team, but i really dont think it's going to happen. unless we brainwash florida's gm we arent going to get him without giving up carter, a good prospect, picks, and possibly even more. plus this spector guy made a good point that we do need to be able to pay him, and it wouldn't shock me one bit to see him get 8mil a season in the free agent market. the whole situation just seems impossible.

shanahan would be great, i love the guy, he's amazing on the powerplay and is a leader that knows how to play the game. he would be a huge plus to this team.

Thats the funniest thing I've read here in a long time....thanks for making my day.

I guess if your names beware of... you'll defend him no matter what

The way Briere played last season, I don't consider him a 1st line center. You call Carter inconsistent ? Briere was very inconsitent.

OrangeAndBlack

Aug 4 2008, 08:37 PM

QUOTE (The Realist @ Aug 4 2008, 10:24 AM)

That's why I can call it worthless. All it means is that you were on the ice for or against a goal. That's all it tells you. That you were simply on the ice for or against a goal. So what? Big whoop? It doesn't take into account whether you had anything to do with the goal or not, or if you created a turnover, turned the puck over yourself, or about a million other things that actually matter.

It's just a raw stat that ignores so many other important factors. Completely ignores many aspects of the game. Case in point? Your griping about how bad a -5 is on Florida (a bad team) vs saying a 0 on a good team is good.

Not only that, but a 1 or 2 defenseman is on the ice against the most skilled players on other team. A guy like Kimmo is out there against Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin, Nash, etc. You put Jones out in those situations on a regular basis and he won't be a plus 8, that's for sure.

The Realist

Aug 5 2008, 08:28 AM

QUOTE (pat @ Aug 4 2008, 08:34 PM)

Thats the funniest thing I've read here in a long time....thanks for making my day.

I guess if your names beware of... you'll defend him no matter what

The way Briere played last season, I don't consider him a 1st line center. You call Carter inconsistent ? Briere was very inconsitent.

Carter was pretty inconsistent last year. I;m not saying Briere isn't, but Carter was too. It just hurt less because he plays defense.

The Realist

Aug 5 2008, 08:29 AM

QUOTE (OrangeAndBlack @ Aug 4 2008, 09:37 PM)

Not only that, but a 1 or 2 defenseman is on the ice against the most skilled players on other team. A guy like Kimmo is out there against Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin, Nash, etc. You put Jones out in those situations on a regular basis and he won't be a plus 8, that's for sure.

I laugh whenever someone throws that stat at me. Sure, for some guys its accurate, Briere does suck defensively, but if a stat isn't accurate for all players its worthless. It ignores so much.

Retire#27

Aug 5 2008, 09:48 AM

QUOTE (The Realist @ Aug 5 2008, 09:28 AM)

Carter was pretty inconsistent last year. I;m not saying Briere isn't, but Carter was too. It just hurt less because he plays defense.

I'm not sure how you define consistent or inconsistent, but look at Carter's game log http://flyers.nhl.com/team/app?page=Player...age&tab=gbg

He didn't produce in bunches, he was pretty steady throughout the season.

QUOTE (The Realist @ Aug 5 2008, 09:29 AM)

I laugh whenever someone throws that stat at me. Sure, for some guys its accurate, Briere does suck defensively, but if a stat isn't accurate for all players its worthless. It ignores so much.

If you throw +/- out the window, throw Points out with it. Don't forget GAA, Save %, Power Play %, Goalie Wins, Game Winning Goals, ...

The Realist

Aug 5 2008, 10:18 AM

QUOTE

I'm not sure how you define consistent or inconsistent, but look at Carter's game log http://flyers.nhl.com/team/app?page=Player...age&tab=gbg

He didn't produce in bunches, he was pretty steady throughout the season.

Well he certainly didn't reach Hartnellian status, but there was a bit of up and down to his game.

April - 1 goal , 3 games
March - 8 goals, 15 games
Feb. - 2 goals, 14 games
Jan. - 5 goals, 13 games
Dec. - 5 goals, 13 games
Nov. - 2 goals, 14 games
Oct. - 6 goals, 10 games

QUOTE

If you throw +/- out the window,throw Points out with it. Don't forget GAA, Save %, Power Play %, Goalie Wins, Game Winning Goals, ...

Those stats actually tell you something meaningful about a players performance.

Retire#27

Aug 5 2008, 10:46 AM

QUOTE (The Realist @ Aug 5 2008, 11:18 AM)

Those stats actually tell you something meaningful about a players performance.

I expected that from you.

+/- is biased because that player may have not caused the goal. (Although, if you're on the ice, it's your job to try to prevent one.)

Points are inaccurate because a player gets a point when he touches the puck behind his own net, then passes it to a guy who takes it the length of the ice, and passes it to another guy who scores a goal. Not to mention the Umberger example (21 points against 3 teams, 29 against the rest).

GAA is biased when the team has a good/bad defense.

Save % is an inaccurate measurement because it doesn't take into account the quality of the shots taken (Biron for example).

Power Play % doesn't take into account the length of the power plays.

Goalie wins are biased for obvious reasons.

Game winning goals is pretty meaningless.

Do you understand that when a stat is taken on just it's own merits without consideration of outside factors, almost all are useless? +/- is no less valid than any of those that I mentioned.

Retire#27

Aug 5 2008, 10:49 AM

QUOTE (The Realist @ Aug 5 2008, 11:18 AM)

Well he certainly didn't reach Hartnell status, but there was a bit of up and down to his game.

Are you using that against a guy that scored 53 points? It's not like he scored 90 points in 20 games. I don't think you can score a point in every game (the model of consistency) and have 53 points at the end of the season. I'd say that only 2 four-game lapses in an entire season is pretty consistent.

Brophy

Aug 7 2008, 10:51 AM

My coach always told us to judge yourself as a line with the +/-. Its a good way for coaches to see who is defensively lacking as a whole not as a player. Thier job is to know whos on the ice when and where. This stat just helps proves everything in a whole. It helps. You can see who is a defensive liabilty if lines get juggled too. Theres ins and outs with the stat. Pretty useless for the most part but it does have a tad of upside.

FiveHoleFrankie

Aug 7 2008, 03:03 PM

You want to know about torture? I'll tell you abotu torture....

Torture is having to put up with a 162 game baseball season and only having to look forward to the Olympics in frikin China, mind you, to get your sports fix!

Side Note: Not counting preseason football.... Ahem...yawn!

hesh

Aug 11 2008, 05:59 PM

QUOTE (The Realist @ Aug 4 2008, 03:08 PM)

That right there is the problem with the stat. There's 5 guys on the ice, 6 including the goalie. There's plenty of times multiple guys have pretty much nothing to do with the goal for/against their team. Do you really think Coburn had a hand in 17 more goals than Timonen? Or that Timonen was responsible for 17 more goals against than Coburn was?

How much do you want to bet Therien has a good +/- and all he did was hang onto Rico's coattails.

You don't think Chris Therien was a good defenseman? Jaromir Jagr once said that Chris Therien is the best defensemen he's ever played against.

The defenseman is the one standing by the net and protecting the net the defenseman is the one making the breakout pass. The defenseman is the one there when the forward creates a turnover. And when you've got a guy like Tomas Vokoun who is one of the best goalies in the league how can you be a minus 5? I've said this a couple of times but I'll repeat myself: I'm not saying this guys a liability or that he's a bad defenseman but he is just not as good as people like to believe he is. If he was really the impact player people say why has he never been in the playoffs in either his junior or professional career?

I have nothing else to say about this guy. I'm a Boumeester fan but I know what type of player the guy is. A good one.

Brophy

Aug 12 2008, 10:58 AM

QUOTE (hesh @ Aug 11 2008, 03:59 PM)

You don't think Chris Therien was a good defenseman? Jaromir Jagr once said that Chris Therien is the best defensemen he's ever played against.

The defenseman is the one standing by the net and protecting the net the defenseman is the one making the breakout pass. The defenseman is the one there when the forward creates a turnover. And when you've got a guy like Tomas Vokoun who is one of the best goalies in the league how can you be a minus 5? I've said this a couple of times but I'll repeat myself: I'm not saying this guys a liability or that he's a bad defenseman but he is just not as good as people like to believe he is. If he was really the impact player people say why has he never been in the playoffs in either his junior or professional career?

I have nothing else to say about this guy. I'm a Boumeester fan but I know what type of player the guy is. A good one.

Damnn way to stick it to em. Ive been trying to say this all along but no bueno.