Byproduct of laziness on my part.

I'm just messing with you.

Whew, because I misplaced my man card and I was worried you were holding it hostage.

So you see Carter's contract at 5 mil, at age 23, who will be an RFA at the end of the contract(will still only be 26 btw) outside of reason. But you don't see Umberger making 3 mil now, at age 26, who will be getting 4.5 mil in the final year of his contract, at age 30, and will be a UFA outside of reason? Wow. Couldn't disagree more. I'm sorry, but for the number of times I saw Umberger disappear last season, I don't see how he deserved a 2+ mil raise. And I certainly don't think he'll be worth his money at the end of his contract at the age he'll be then. However, Carter showed an awful lot this season. Especially when Richards was out. And I believe he'll be cheap at 5 mil in 3 years and still only be 26 years old. And I don't think it's a big strain to realize that Carter's potential far outweighs Umberger's potential.

Don't get me wrong. I like Umberger and what he brings to a team when he shows up. But he's not worth what he's getting paid, imo.

Not a bad idea hindsight. But if a team would've offered 5mil to Carter and we let him go, we'd get a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder in return. I don't think I'd be happy with that. Now if they would've signed RJ and dealt Carter in a package to Fla for Bouwmeester, that I could accept.

Haha!

Umberger's ppg avg was actually higher than Carter's both in the regular season and PO's. So if he "disappeared" what did Carter do? If Umberger didn't deserve a $2 million dollar raise, why does Carter deserve (what was it 3 or 4) when he was a less productive point producer?

And for Carter to be considered "cheap" he's pretty much going to have to be Richards imo. 70+ points and shutdown player. I;m not saying he can't do it, he just has to grow...a lot.

Before you have a heart attack, reading into something that isn't there let me again say I considered keeping Carter more important. However, unlike a lot of you I don't view important things "at all costs." Just because I wanted Carter resigned more doesn't mean I want the team's hands tied at the expense of retaining him. Which ironically now they are as they are over the cap.

If Carter and RJ were going for the same salary (or really close), yes I'd choose Carter. Definitely. It's about making the team better though, which isn't always about the more expensive player. The way I see it Umberger and a legit #3 defender is better than Carter and two more 5/6's.

Trading Carter (instead of picks) would have been great. But those 3 picks ain't bad at all. Say you let Carter walk. You get those picks and it saves you his $5 mil. That has the potential to make you better now (more wiggle room right now) and later (the picks).

I'm not angry they chose Carter over Umby. They should have. But I;m angry that they (when they had control over it) put themselves in this financial situation.

I've already explained to you that twisting statistics to fit your argument looks silly. Using PPG to show consistency? Come on. I'll give you an extreme example: 2 players play 80 games, Player A finishes with 40 pts, Player B finishes with 60 pts (obviously Player B has a higher PPG), but Player B scored 20 of his points against one team, while the most Player A scored against one team is 8 points. Who would be the more consistent player there?

I don't think Carter will ever be considered "cheap." Will he be considered a good deal? Probably. But that's part of being GM, you have to make tough decisions and take risks. You have shown that, in an extreme effort to be the "realist," you lack the foresight to see what players can become (you show it constantly when you criticize trades, you also showed it at the beginning of the season with Carter and Hartnell). So I can understand your concern.

I don't see our hands tied by Carter, I see them tied by the uncertainty over Hatcher. That is making the difference right now.

Your Umberger + a #3 defender argument is pretty ridiculous. Let's say we signed Umberger at $3.5 million instead of the $3.75 million he signed for Columbus (because he loves us so much). How many #3 defensemen do you think would be willing to sign for $1.5 million or less? I'll wait to see your list, but I won't hold my breath.

I'll re-post this Hartnell comparison, because you seem to have forgotten what it takes to hold on to someone like Carter:



If you choose to reply, please don't be childish, come back at me with some facts or something (it's no fun otherwise).

Nowhere did I say $1.5 gets you a #3. What I did say is that the $1.5 saved + NOT going after Eminger and Vaanannen gives you something around $4 million for a defender.

Does Carter have higher potential than Umberger? Yes, I'm not debating that. But if it got me a better defender than what we were forced to go after this off season (because we honestly couldn't afford anything more - because of the overpaying) I'd be ok with that. Dare I say it makes you better (because a higher quality player on D).

My argument isn't about who the better player is or will be. It's about who the better group of players is.

Don't call me childish because you didn't like my answers last time. If anything that is childish. Some of those deals (especially the one's signed this off season) are completely laughable in how badly they are rewarding mediocrity. The one's signed a few years ago you really can't use as a comparison, but Ryder's for example is a freaking joke. Sean Avery if all got drastically overpaid too. If you honestly believe those are good contracts I have something in the toilet I want to sell you.

OK. I understand what you're saying. But in reality we needed at least one of Eminger or Vaananen or we would have had the same or worse defensive depth problems when compared to last season. So Carter minus Umberger equals about $1.5 million plus Vaananen equals about $2.5 million. Still not enough to sign a #3. I think you're just having a hard time admitting that Holmgren probably made the right choices with what he had available. I understand, that would kill your whole persona.

I too wanted to see us seriously upgrade our defense this off-season. I mentioned that it was our downfal throughout most of the season. But, even in off-season hindsight, I don't think there was a better way to go.

And, finally, I don't have to believe any of those contracts were or have to be good, the fact is they are reality. That's what you have to deal with.

Jay Bouwmeester is possibly the most overrated player in the league. He gets the most minutes out of anyone in the League(and that's not an exxageration) and puts up what? 30 points a year? My goodness. The guys is a great defenceman but he is overrated at both ends of the ice. Not only that but he has no leadership qualities to speak of. I love the guy but Carter and Jones would be giving up too much. especially with the amount of time and care put into both of the guys by the flyers organization.

The jackets and thrashers knew what they were doing when they didn't take this guy 1st. The guy had a history of poor condition and poor leadership and not stepping up at the right time going all the way back to junior.

THN's Ken Campbell is not so high on Boumeester. Here's the link to his article:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/1738...h-the-hype.html

Here's a quote:

When exactly does Bouwmeester himself begin to accept some of the responsibility for the on-ice fortunes of the Panthers? If he’s supposed to be their undisputed No. 1 defenseman, shouldn’t he be expected to have a major part in leading the way to the Panthers becoming a playoff team? He has been there for five seasons and they haven’t played a playoff game yet. Isn’t he at least partly responsible for that?

Quite frankly, I’ve never understood the fascination with this guy. Ever since he came onto the scene as a 16-year-old he has been surrounded by hype, with much of the pom-pom waving generated by Hockey Canada. When he was a junior player, I kept hearing how great Bouwmeester was, then I watched him have absolutely no effect on any of the games in three straight World Junior Championships. He scored a total of zero goals and four assists in 21 games in those three tournaments and Canada came away with two bronze medals and a silver medal.

Here’s a guy who didn’t play a single playoff game in junior hockey and hasn’t played one as an NHL player. There have been serious concerns about his approach to conditioning and his off-ice lifestyle and he has proven time and again he lacks the take-charge personality required to be a true team leader on and off the ice.
ENDQUOTE

Need them ha! My butt. Take those two away and taking into account the #3 I'm talking about the team still has Timonen, Coburn, #3-man, Jones, Parent, Kuk, and arguably Guenin or Hatcher.

So you lose Hatcher and Smith, add a #3, and cycle pretty much the same 5's and 6's except for Modry and Vandermeer, and have no legit #7 in the wings? Doesn't sound like much of an upgrade to me. Meanwhile, you're sacrificing offense and the future by losing Carter. I'll pass on that deal.

First of all the sacrificing offense argument isn't the strongest point in the world. This team had 6 20 goal scorers last year. Having only 5 instead of 6 20 goal scorers isn't the end of the world, especially if the defense is legitimately upgraded (and you openly admit it was the biggest problem).

Not to mention Gagne (still a question mark I agree) and Upshall (only 6 goals away from 20 and missed 21 games). Add that to the other 5 who will probably score 20 and offense ain't a real big issue

Parent was here all of a handful of games last year. He's not "the same" 5/6 guy. They had a slew of players in those roles. Fitzpatrick, Kuk, Modry, Vandy and then at the end Parent. Completely inaccurate to paint him as "the same" when it was a rotating cast of characters.

Timonen/Coburn
#3/Jones
Parent/Kuk

Maybe Hatcher at some point.

And if you are so **** concerned with who the 7 is you saw how easily the Flyers went out and picked up fill ins during the year.

JBO isnt the player we need. At least not the one at the right price. We would have to give up a 25 goal scorer and more. I have faith in Timonen, Coburn and co. The offense isn`t an issue in Philly because we have 3 scoring trios. We need a better season in goal with the Biron and Niitty tandem. And obviously the 2nd pairing and 3rd one have to be better. Which I hope they will with the experience they have gotten. End of the rant.

And? They had 6 20 goal scorers last year. So what if they lost 1 to upgrade the D?

I think I might have mentioned this but jay bouwmeester is very overrated. Talent wise(other than skating) both offensively and Defensively I think Coburn has the edge. Were talking about a guy that played almost 1000 minutes less that bouwmeester and almost equaled him in points(1 less than jay) and destroyed him in plus/minus (special teams goals do not count with plusminus) and if you think it's because of floridas weak defence think again. Florida allowed the twelfth least GA in the league. Also Read my previous post on why he's overrated^^^^^

Not saying he's not an improvement over eminger or vaananen(although he was great when he played for Phoenix) but I wouldn't be willing to give up a 20 goal scorer let alone a 40 goal scorer. It's just not worth it for a guy that will not make that much of an impact on the team. Also if he cannot be signed he will be a ufa since he has been in the league for 7 years(yes the lockout counts)

Coburn better then Bouwmeester offensively? Yeah right..
Coburn benifitted from playing on the second best PP in the league and with all-star D-man Kimmo Timonen. Bouwmeester benifitted from.. the crowd?


And you contradict yourself a little bit, Bouwmeester logged the most minutes in the league and helped them to allow the 12th least GA in the league. He made the defence stronger since he was on the ice half the time of every game. It's not like the other D-man in Florida was the reason for their low GA and Bouwmeester made it worse. (Like you make it sound).

Oh well since you say so it must be. Sorry man, not trying to start anything, but you sound a little bit like you're talking out of your hiney hole.

You blatantly ignore the liklihood that Coburn's big leap (this fast not saying he wouldn't be good on his own) is attributed to playing with Timonen, while blasting Bouwmeister when he's the #1 guy, on a worse team, and plays almost half a game on average. Did it ever cross your mind part of the reason FLR had such a good GAA might be in part due to, ya know, their best defenseman?



What do you think it costs to get a top 2 defenseman? Not to mention losing a 20 goal scorer from this team is hardly a significant blow to the scoring department.

Finally, someone who's willing to try to break up this Bouwmeester lovefest. Don't give in to the Flyers superior PP argument. FLA didn't exactly stumble in that category with the 6th best PP in the NHL. Bouwmeester got 4G and 10A on the PP, while Coburn had 5G and 10A on the PP; pretty even. And ignore two people giving the same c.u.m. hoc argument, I love when bias is shown through a good old cause-effect relationship. Ridiculous.

Don't hold out belief that any of these people will be swayed by your arguments though. Their minds have been up Bouwmeester's arse for quite a while.

[EDIT: Wow, I didn't know I couldn't write c-u-m. Learn something new everyday.]

I didn't know what the stats were, I was going after how I've seen them play and I still say that Coburn benifitted from a better team.

Also, you seemed to ignore the same argument that the two biased fans gave

I also wouldn't really want him. Id rather take someone else who would cost less now and cost less down the road.

What, that the GA was good because he was on the team, or that the PP was good because he was on it? That's what I was referring to as a c-u-m hoc argument (that kindly got censored by the great message board wizard). Statistically, especially in those two categories, FLA wasn't far off from the Flyers.

And I'll start to cut you some slack and go easy on you when you admit that 27 is the greatest number ever.

Well, the previous poster stated how Coburn was much better defensively and me and the other biased poster stated that Bouwmeesters stats are misleading since he's the one who's supposed to carry the team (unlike Coburn who get a decent help from Timonen back there). I only saw you posting stats regarding the PP.

I also have to ask about that one, how many of Coburn's and Bouwmeester's assists were secondary on the PP? And while Coburn scored most goals from sneaking up in the slot and fired a one-timer from a brilliant pass from Richards/Timonen/Briere, how many of those were Bouwmeester able to do with his pp?

Also, I will never admit that since I would rather retire 31 before 27

You're acting like Bryan Allen is a leech. Bouwmeester was definitely not alone, FLA has a pretty good, young defensive core.

I have no idea if assists were primary or secondary, I don't think anyone keeps that stat. And I'm pretty sure that most of Coburn's goals were blasts from the point, I rarely saw him be fed one-timers. But we can't really argue any deeper on that because there is no information to back up our claims.

I love Lindbergh, but he barely played, admit 27 = greatness and I'll let it go.

Nah, their D-corp was decent, they have a lot of D-man well enough to be a 3-4 d-man but Bouwmeester was/is the only there who looks good on top pairing minutes IMO.

I admit that 27 was good, but I can't say more cause then I would be too nice to you. And I still think 28 is better

You mean he went out of his way to defend the team, its moves, and personnel at all costs? There's a shock.

?

Well heres my question. Of Floridas top 6 defenceman why did he have the worst plus minus? And honestly. The guy led the league in ice time. How many points does he put up a season. 30? Not only that but he is not as capable a defender as many think. Between coburn and bouwmeester I would take Coburn. Between Ryan Whitney and Bouwmeester I would take whitney. Between phaneuf and bouwmeester. I take phaneuf. Not only that but from what I have read and heard this is a guy lacking in character. "heart" if thats what you wanna call it. He doesn't have it. He's not a winner.

Also he is a ufa at seasons end.

Since he was up against better lines? That answers your first two..

And we don't need character guys all over the team really. We have Richards, Timonen, Hatcher and all those. I think they will cover up for Bouwmeester in that area

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned, if Bouwmeester is this Messiah for Florida that he's being made out to be here in this thread, why would Florida even be shopping him? Shouldn't they be building around a player like that? He's a good defenseman. But he's no Messiah. He's got his liabilities. And one of his big ones is his commitment to his work ethic. And that's been in question for years. Another is not using his size to his advantage often enough, and this hurts his defensive game in his own zone often. I wouldn't say Coburn is better offensively, but I believe Coburn is better defensively. Just my opinion from what I've seen of the two.

Regarding Hexy and Pelle, both were great. One thing about Hexy, was the way he would often let up 90 footers. Often times when a long shot was taken against him, it would make me cringe. And I don't believe I was the only one that would cringe.

Another thing to mention, if Pelle hadn't passed away, and continued to show this city the type of goalie he could have become, Hexy may have never seen a Flyers sweater on his chest, let alone become a #1 goalie here. He(Pelle) may have arguably been the next Bernie for this city. Something we've needed here for a long time. I'm not taking anything away from Hexy, but personally, I'd rather see a Pelle banner raised to the rafters. No offense. I'm not sure either will happen though.

Duncan Keith:+30
Jay Bouwmeester:-5

Why is Duncan Keith a plus 30 and Jay Bouwmeester a -5? They both players on bottom 15 teams why is their plus minus stat so different and yet they're point total is the exact same? If this doesn't change you're mind about Bouwmeester I don't know what will. All you have to do is look at what Chris Pronger or Scott Niedermayer did with the Ducks and oilers during the 05/06 season. Neither team would have made the playoffs yet one of those defenders took his team to the WCF and the other took his team to the finals. With that said I don't want you to put him on the same pedastal as guys of that caliber that's why I make that comparison. Jay Bouwmeester is on the same level as Coburn but he is not better. And when you make the stats comparison you can see that. But when you look past it then you can believe what you want to believe and you'll be right.

Also to answer the question Bouwmeester is being shopped because he is a ufa next year. that's why he wanted a 1 year deal. he doesn't want to play for florida.

Also Cullimore was a plus 20 with florida. so bouwmeester doesn't really have an excuse. And Phillys D was pretty weak too.

I agree about Bouwmeester, especially defensively.

I loved Pelle, and think he would have been great, but I couldn't justify his numbers on a banner based on what he could have been. And, for the record, there were only 2 long shots that got past him in those playoffs. (2 too many of course though.)

I understand. And agree in a way. But it wouldn't just be based on what he could have been. It would be also based on the way his career was ended prematurely. A good example is Barry Ashbee. A player that only played 4 years for the Flyers, and didn't put up amazing numbers by any means. But had his career tragically ended prematurely. Yes, one thing to consider is that Pelle was largely to blame for his own career ending, while Ashbee was not to blame at all for his ending. So, it's a tough debate. As I said, I don't believe we'll see either Hexy's or Pelle's number retired.


Lol.

Bouwmeester isn't being shopped around at this point. Florida has made it clear that they want to keep him more than anything, be he has not been willing to sign with them long term. If they trade him it's so they can get value in return instead of letting him walk as a UFA for nothing.

Timonen: 0
Coburn: +17
Jones: +8

Explain that one.

No that's not me saying Timonen sucks defensively. That's me saying the +/- is one of the most worthless stats in the game.

1. They aren't. They tried to sign him longterm.

2. You honestly think teams never trade high caliber players?

But according to this thread, he can be traded for. So, if it's known throughout the league that Florida's only option is to trade him now(before the deadline), so they can get something for him, the return value for him shouldn't be as high. Correct? And people think the Knuble rumor is ridiculous...Lol.


When it's a "supposed" stud defenseman who's only 24 years old? No, they don't. Not unless they're forced to(see above).

Correct, until you factor in the demand. When up to 29 teams are competing for the same player, the player's value skyrockets through the bidding wars.

I can explain that easily. as many even strength goals were scored against the flyers while Kimmo Timmonen was on the ice than were score for. How can you say plus/minus is one of the most worthless stats in the game? It measures the number of Even strength goals that are scored while a player is on the ice. Yeah sure every now and then a goal is scored while a player is either coming on or going off but over the course of a season that balances out. Timonen is decent defensively. But if you look over the course of his career he has clearly been a guy who has sacrificed defense for offense. Theres no other way to explain it he is average in even strength situations. Being an even 0 is not necessarily especially if you're on a winning team. However to say that Kimmo is a monster in his own zone is ridiculous the guy is alright and he had a good playoffs but his forte is offense and he lived up to that for many years.

We may disagree but you asked me. Clearly were going to be in a disagreement buddy but it's just that simple. when you get the minutes that a guy like kimmo gets on a high scoring team like the flyers that is the only explanation. Also I think that ten game losing streak skewed every bodies plus/minus a bit.

It's a bit different when a player is going to be a UFA next off-season though. That does a lot towards deflating a player's value. In today's hockey, it does.

I don't think so. You can get a roster play a prospect and a first rounder for someone like him. just look at the hossa campbell Smyth Guerin forsberg deals At the same time though.

EDIT: At the same time though you have to remember, Jay is 25 and his potential is skyhigh. He has all the tool(but is yet to use them all effectively to his advantage) and teams will be dying to get their hands on this guy. We haven't seen anything like this since the Mike Comrie deal and that was pre lockout and at that time edmonton was a team that could not afford players with a salary of 2 million let alone 5. And to add to that I'm sure a team like Toronto would absolutely wreck their team to get their hands on a guy who they believe they can build their franchise around.

Campbell is the only comparable player in those you list. And I don't see how you can sit there and tell me that Buffalo wouldn't have gotten more than Steve Bernier(then moved for a 2nd and 3rd rounder from Vancouver) and a first round pick for Campbell and a 7th round pick if he wasn't going to be a UFA. Because if you're telling me a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick for Brian Campbell is of even value, I would strongly disagree. It may sound like a lot, but it's not for a proven, solid defenseman, even being 29 years old(4-5 years younger than Bouwmeester).


Uh, I guess you really haven't read what I've typed in this thread. Lol.

Just saying there are teams out there that will give up a lot for this guy. Toronto and NY for instance would strip their farm team of everything for this guy.

That's why I can call it worthless. All it means is that you were on the ice for or against a goal. That's all it tells you. That you were simply on the ice for or against a goal. So what? Big whoop? It doesn't take into account whether you had anything to do with the goal or not, or if you created a turnover, turned the puck over yourself, or about a million other things that actually matter.

It's just a raw stat that ignores so many other important factors. Completely ignores many aspects of the game. Case in point? Your griping about how bad a -5 is on Florida (a bad team) vs saying a 0 on a good team is good.

He can be. Especially when all the signs indicate he's unhappy where he is.




Bingo. If forced, which appears the direction it might be headed in.

For a defenceman? It's a very valuable statistic to measure the quality of defensive player you are. Because you are the one carrying the puck and protecting the net. Most of the time it will have something to do with you. And considering Tomas Vokoun is among the best in the league a lot of the likely did. I'm not saying jay isn't good I'm saying he is one of the most overrated players in the league. It's not that bad.

Defense is one of the most important positions in the game. A lot of poeople seem to put him on the same level as a guy like Pronger saying that he can take a team to the next level. I simply say "No" and show you that he has had a history of losing throughout his junior international and nhl career. The only time he won gold was in salt Lake and the World cup where he was simply an extra defenceman. Not only that but he has never made the playoffs since he was drafted in junior.

He's a good player but he's only a supporting guy that's all I'm saying.

That right there is the problem with the stat. There's 5 guys on the ice, 6 including the goalie. There's plenty of times multiple guys have pretty much nothing to do with the goal for/against their team. Do you really think Coburn had a hand in 17 more goals than Timonen? Or that Timonen was responsible for 17 more goals against than Coburn was?

How much do you want to bet Therien has a good +/- and all he did was hang onto Rico's coattails.

i still dont understand all this briere hate, without him centering the first line we really wouldn't have a legit first line point getting center. carter has the potential to fill that position, but definatley not now, he's way to inconsistent. richards obviously put up 70+ points but does everyone really think he can produce that every year? especially because he's so effective playing in a shutdown role playing first line would take away that part of his game.

anyway back on topic, i would kill to have bouwmeester on this team, but i really dont think it's going to happen. unless we brainwash florida's gm we arent going to get him without giving up carter, a good prospect, picks, and possibly even more. plus this spector guy made a good point that we do need to be able to pay him, and it wouldn't shock me one bit to see him get 8mil a season in the free agent market. the whole situation just seems impossible.

shanahan would be great, i love the guy, he's amazing on the powerplay and is a leader that knows how to play the game. he would be a huge plus to this team.